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> Recipe To Grocery List, Access 2016    
 
   
MOMO88
post Jan 3 2018, 07:08 AM
Post#21



Posts: 94
Joined: 2-August 17



And i thought i was doing good...
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MadPiet
post Jan 3 2018, 08:35 AM
Post#22



Posts: 2,507
Joined: 27-February 09



You're getting there. Getting your head around database design and normalization is hard. Especially at the beginning. And the weird lookup stuff in Access makes things worse, because what you see isn't what you get. It's a noted "misfeature". (The guy who started the AccessWeb page like 25 years ago wrote about it then!)

"Thou shalt never allow thy users to see or edit tables directly, but only through forms and thou shalt abhor the use of "Lookup Fields" which art the creation of the Evil One."

Okay, having said that... If you create a query with the fields you will either filter on or show in your report, then you can just put the "ingredients" information (Ingredient Name, Quantity, Units) in the Detail section, and put the Recipe Name in the Group section, you're all set.
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MadPiet
post Jan 3 2018, 08:55 AM
Post#23



Posts: 2,507
Joined: 27-February 09



In case you thought database design was really easy... I have been doing this since 1996, and I discovered that I missed a table in my design for a database I was writing (to prepare for an interview). it's not easy. Sure, there are "paradigms" or design patterns or whatever, but once you have to work out some of that by yourself (and make your database answer real questions), that's where it can get tricky. The reason almost everyone who has gone to school to learn database design has done the "Students & Classes" database is because it's complicated if you don't understand normalization and relationships, and building that one from scratch without cheating teaches you design fundamentals the hard way. But you learn that way.

When I was doing cancer research stuff 10 years ago, I inherited documentation for a database that managed a large part of the critical data for our department, and in it I found ...
1. a recitation of the Normal Forms. (like a plagiarized list.)
2. NO real application of them (discussing design decisions).
3. a statement along the lines of "Normalization: Do we need it? No. It just makes querying the database harder."

Oh really? When I fixed all the things that were screwed up in their databases, I basically worked myself out of a job.

I thought that slide was so funny that I printed it out and taped it up above my desk. I'd read it whenever I wanted a good laugh.

if you really want to get your head around this, maybe you should read "Database Design for Mere Mortals" by Michael Hernandez. I know there's a more current version, co-written by John Viescas (one of the guys that wrote Access Developer's Handbook), but here's a free PDF of the old version: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/images/9780.../0321884493.pdf

Okay, why do you want to spend time reading this kind of stuff? Because unless you really understand how relationships work and how to design your database right, querying is a complete nightmare. (Trust me, I've seen some doozies... the cancer research databases I worked on had 60+ columns in one table when it should have had like 7 (PatientID, Cycle, SymptomID, [Grade], Causality, Relatedness).

In graduate school, one of my professors said to "build your tables, add like 3 records to each table, and TEST." If your design is wrong, your mistakes will become really obvious when you try to query your database to get an answer to some question." Great advice.

So don't give up. No lie, this stuff is hard. Anyone who says different either thinks in very very analytical ways or is lying. Database design requires a different kind of analytical thinking, and until you get your head around it, the rest is extremely hard. Reading Hernandez's book will help you through the hard part of understanding the hows and whys of database design. Happy reading!
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GroverParkGeorge
post Jan 3 2018, 09:12 AM
Post#24


UA Admin
Posts: 33,794
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


Well said, Pieter.
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MOMO88
post Jan 3 2018, 10:32 AM
Post#25



Posts: 94
Joined: 2-August 17



thank you! I know it is tough. That is why I am trying as hard as i can to not fall into the normal trap of letting someone else do it. I need to learn this for myself if nothing else. I am going to look for that book today. are there any classes that would help me learn this formally? I am currently in college(late start) and i would take any class i can through college or other that would allow me to learn this whole thing. The basics are what i need to be able to grow, and i know i dont have them yet. Thank you all for repeating the stuff for me to allow it to sink in. Dont give up on me! lol
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