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FrankRuperto
post Jan 16 2020, 10:56 AM
Post#1



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


When I login to UA the landing page usually shows over 1,000 guests active, (e.g. the Russian MailDotRU and YandexDotCom).
Are all these guests mainly web crawling bots that continuously scrape UA content?
This post has been edited by FrankRuperto: Jan 16 2020, 10:57 AM
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--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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GroverParkGeorge
post Jan 16 2020, 11:21 AM
Post#2


UA Admin
Posts: 36,778
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


Possibly. Why are you asking?

--------------------
My Real Name Is George. Grover Park Consulting is where I did business for 20 years.
How to Ask a Good Question
Beginning SQL Server
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FrankRuperto
post Jan 16 2020, 11:30 AM
Post#3



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


QUOTE
Why are you asking?


Is it necessary or even desirable to have so many of them?
This post has been edited by FrankRuperto: Jan 16 2020, 11:32 AM

--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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cheekybuddha
post Jan 16 2020, 11:31 AM
Post#4


UtterAccess Moderator
Posts: 12,325
Joined: 6-December 03
From: Telegraph Hill


How else do you expect our content to be indexed in search engines?

--------------------


Regards,

David Marten
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GroverParkGeorge
post Jan 16 2020, 11:34 AM
Post#5


UA Admin
Posts: 36,778
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


I suspect there's a pro and a con to having our content crawled. The pro is, as David says, it is indexed for search engines. The con is, I guess, that a lot of bandwidth is consumed in the process? Or are you thinking of another potential problem?

--------------------
My Real Name Is George. Grover Park Consulting is where I did business for 20 years.
How to Ask a Good Question
Beginning SQL Server
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FrankRuperto
post Jan 16 2020, 11:38 AM
Post#6



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


Well, I guess its okay as long as none of our personally identifiable information is being shared, but why so many when a couple crawlers like google and bing would be sufficient to index our content?

--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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GroverParkGeorge
post Jan 16 2020, 11:43 AM
Post#7


UA Admin
Posts: 36,778
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


Good point about PII. It's been going on since Day One....

'but why so many when a couple crawlers like google and bing would be sufficient..."

I guess because not everyone relies on Google or Bing?

Do you know of a way to PREVENT webcrawlers on a website?
This post has been edited by GroverParkGeorge: Jan 16 2020, 11:44 AM

--------------------
My Real Name Is George. Grover Park Consulting is where I did business for 20 years.
How to Ask a Good Question
Beginning SQL Server
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cheekybuddha
post Jan 16 2020, 11:46 AM
Post#8


UtterAccess Moderator
Posts: 12,325
Joined: 6-December 03
From: Telegraph Hill


I don't use Google or Bing for search!

Ironically Google probably has more PII about you than anyone!

The only PII that will be crawled will only be what you put up yourself!

--------------------


Regards,

David Marten
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FrankRuperto
post Jan 16 2020, 11:46 AM
Post#9



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


QUOTE
Good point about PII. It's been going on since Day One....


What do you mean by "It's been going on since Day One"?

When I mention PII, I mean things like our email addresses, our IP addresses, stuff like that
This post has been edited by FrankRuperto: Jan 16 2020, 11:49 AM

--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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DanielPineault
post Jan 16 2020, 11:54 AM
Post#10


UtterAccess VIP
Posts: 7,139
Joined: 30-June 11



On way or another there is no way to stop bots from crawling your site. You can ask them nicely, but they don't have to listen. The www is the wild west, no rules! Anonymity, security are nothing more than an illusion.

--------------------
Daniel Pineault (2010-2019 Microsoft MVP, UA VIP, EE Distinguished Expert 2018)
Professional Help: https://www.cardaconsultants.com
Free MS Access Code, Tips, Tricks and Samples: https://www.devhut.net

* Design should never say "Look at me". It should always say "Look at this". -- David Craib
* A user interface is like a joke, if you have to explain it, it's not that good! -- Martin LeBlanc


All code samples, demonstration databases, links,... are provided 'AS IS' and are to be used at your own risk! Take the necessary steps to check, validate ...(you are responsible for your choices and actions)
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FrankRuperto
post Jan 16 2020, 12:12 PM
Post#11



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


I saw this in the UA Guidelines "Legal Stuff":

QUOTE
All information posted at UtterAccess.com becomes the property of UtterAccess.com, and may be published by UtterAccess.com or Microsoft Corporation, without compensation.


1. Does this include our personally identifiable information?
2. If a member attaches to a posting an Access application, or any other content, which the member has copyrited or patented, is the member transferring ownership/author rights of the content he/she posted to UA or Microsoft?
This post has been edited by FrankRuperto: Jan 16 2020, 12:16 PM

--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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GroverParkGeorge
post Jan 16 2020, 12:22 PM
Post#12


UA Admin
Posts: 36,778
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


Frank. WEBCRAWLERS have been crawling the web since Day One, including UtterAccess.

--------------------
My Real Name Is George. Grover Park Consulting is where I did business for 20 years.
How to Ask a Good Question
Beginning SQL Server
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DanielPineault
post Jan 16 2020, 01:10 PM
Post#13


UtterAccess VIP
Posts: 7,139
Joined: 30-June 11



QUOTE
If a member attaches to a posting an Access application, or any other content, which the member has copyrited or patented, is the member transferring ownership/author rights of the content he/she posted to UA or Microsoft?


I'm no legal expert, but I sure read it that way. I had never seen that statement, and it is very alarming! It's one thing to allow UA to use it, since you're already posting it there, but to unilaterally allow MS (a multi billion dollar multinational) to take your stuff, not impressed in the least!

Why do people always have to do things like this and ruin a good thing! Probably the end of UA for me.

--------------------
Daniel Pineault (2010-2019 Microsoft MVP, UA VIP, EE Distinguished Expert 2018)
Professional Help: https://www.cardaconsultants.com
Free MS Access Code, Tips, Tricks and Samples: https://www.devhut.net

* Design should never say "Look at me". It should always say "Look at this". -- David Craib
* A user interface is like a joke, if you have to explain it, it's not that good! -- Martin LeBlanc


All code samples, demonstration databases, links,... are provided 'AS IS' and are to be used at your own risk! Take the necessary steps to check, validate ...(you are responsible for your choices and actions)
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jleach
post Jan 16 2020, 02:17 PM
Post#14


UtterAccess Administrator
Posts: 10,454
Joined: 7-December 09
From: St. Augustine, FL


Hi all,

For what it’s worth, that verbiage has been in UA since... as long as I can remember (it’s certainly nothing that's been recently added).

Reagarding transfer of content ownership to UA, I agree that it seems a bit overreaching. I suppose one reason it may have been put in is to prevent situations such as “I posted this here a year ago, now I want it back and all copies of it destroyed” or some such, and (part of) that statement would prevent UA from being liable for whatever users may have done whatever with it from there.

With that said, I think this could be much better worded, and we will bring this up in an administrative discussion to see what can be done with it.


Regarding PII: all information collected, with the exception of your password and IP address used to post, is publicly visible through your profile, so I don't expect this should be much of a surprise. All passwords are hashed with custom salts upon receipt by the server, and no plaintext passwords are stored anywhere. IP addresses used to post are available to moderators and administrators for the purpose of spam moderation and D/DoS prevention: occasionally we block a certain IP or set of IPs for a period time. No data (post information, profile information, uploaded content, etc) is provided to any other party (including Microsoft).

Hopefully that alleviates some of the current confusion around that wording, and as noted, we'll work to provide a more coherent policy in short order.

Thanks

--------------------
Jack D. Leach
Founder & CEO
Dymeng Services Inc.
Business Software Solutions
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ghubbell
post Jan 17 2020, 07:51 PM
Post#15


UA Administrator
Posts: -8,388,307
Joined: 21-April 01
From: Right here.


Hi Jack, hi gang,

Yup, that line has been there for over a decade. Microsoft was not going to steal your work, more just look at what we were all doing with Access. As I recall it came about because of the 'what do you use Access for?' thread(s) which I started around '03. It was at that point they began reading what you and I were doing and what we wanted from Access, and had requested to copy that whole thread(s) to study and discuss back at Redmond.

We have had asks (rare) to 'remove all my posts' and you know, in most circumstances, we would do it, but believe me - it's a messy task when someone asks for that (think how it leaves voids in threads), so there's your reason for the content becomes the property of... bit. Nobody (UA or MS) ever borrowed code for anything, any more than anyone who can read or who signs up and downloads could do. I'm trying to say it really just alleviates the 'take down my stuff now because I'm in a bad mood' sort of thing...(yeah it has happened).

Summary might be, nothing to worry about at all - nobody is stealing or taking over your code or work.

Look on the bright side that Microsoft and specifically the Access Team went to the effort to come in and ask politely, and ultimately for the benefit of everyone (as here we are this many years later). smile.gif

Personal info is personal. Sign out or toss your cookies ohyeah.gif and click on anyone's profile. You can not see them. Siggys and anything you post in the forums are of course public - it is / was / remains your choice to display a signature or not providing they follow the siggy rules that have been set over the years.

Enjoy - have fun!

HTH,

Gord cheers.gif
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DanielPineault
post Jan 18 2020, 07:11 AM
Post#16


UtterAccess VIP
Posts: 7,139
Joined: 30-June 11



Gord,

I truly appreciate the post, but let's be clear

The law is the law, what is written is what is allowable/enforceable. Good intention and thoughts ("nobody will") simply are not enforceable. "Nobody (UA or MS) ever borrowed code for anything" no one has any ways of knowing this.

Moreover, Microsoft did not need any such permissions to browse these forums to see what we were discussing or try any posted code! So there remains a very valid question as to why they felt the need to get such a specific line added!!! The only reason for such a statement is to take ownership of work, to actually use it without having to recognize and/or compensate the original developer. There is absolutely no need otherwise since these are public forums.

QUOTE
'take down my stuff now because I'm in a bad mood

You bring up a good point as a 'Forget Me' option should be available to any user this day in age.

I'm disappointed to see such a statement at UA. This greatly diminishes the value I put here.



Let's just say that we don't see eye to eye on this point.

--------------------
Daniel Pineault (2010-2019 Microsoft MVP, UA VIP, EE Distinguished Expert 2018)
Professional Help: https://www.cardaconsultants.com
Free MS Access Code, Tips, Tricks and Samples: https://www.devhut.net

* Design should never say "Look at me". It should always say "Look at this". -- David Craib
* A user interface is like a joke, if you have to explain it, it's not that good! -- Martin LeBlanc


All code samples, demonstration databases, links,... are provided 'AS IS' and are to be used at your own risk! Take the necessary steps to check, validate ...(you are responsible for your choices and actions)
Go to the top of the page
 
jleach
post Jan 18 2020, 08:00 AM
Post#17


UtterAccess Administrator
Posts: 10,454
Joined: 7-December 09
From: St. Augustine, FL


That line of text dates back well over ten years - at a time when a) information wasn't nearly as valuable as it is today, and therefore: b) there wasn't near as much concern over data privacy as there is today.

If you post content in a public forum, you have public content. I don't feel that it should be up to the forum to provide the functionality to back out on that because someone changed their mind later. Email servers don't revoke sent emails, usenet groups didn't even allow you to edit a post: you submit it, it's there, forever: can't even fix a type, let along say "oh, I want all my content removed".

With that said, we're happy to help if there's a request to do so (we're not made of stone), but as a general rule, "forget me" functionality exists in the ability to deactivate your account.

Again, this is why the matter is in discussion in the admin forum right now.

Thanks,

--------------------
Jack D. Leach
Founder & CEO
Dymeng Services Inc.
Business Software Solutions
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FrankRuperto
post Jan 18 2020, 08:53 AM
Post#18



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


Hi Gord,

QUOTE
it came about because of the 'what do you use Access for?' thread(s) which I started around '03. It was at that point they began reading what you and I were doing and what we wanted from Access, and had requested to copy that whole thread(s) to study and discuss back at Redmond.


So if the purpose was solely for MS to copy and use the contents of the "What do you use Access for?" thread, then that's been done a long time ago and the overreaching ownership condition being disputed in this thread should be replaced with something similar to what UA had back in year 2002.

QUOTE
Your use of the UA website does not create a license or offer any other rights to UA.


UA can of course always delete content without a member's permission, since that's the other reason you explained for adding the disputed ownership statement.
This post has been edited by FrankRuperto: Jan 18 2020, 09:20 AM
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Attached File  UA2002.PNG ( 85.71K )Number of downloads: 7
 

--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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jleach
post Jan 18 2020, 09:54 AM
Post#19


UtterAccess Administrator
Posts: 10,454
Joined: 7-December 09
From: St. Augustine, FL


In order for UA to maintain the integrity of the site and manage the content posted here, we need to have some leeway in what we're allowed to do with it.

We've determined that the current wording is not ideal. We've also spent the last few days reviewing licensing options in similar scenarios.

Generally speaking, when members post content in a public venue, the venue is granted a license to use, display, and distribute that content (e.g., in Featured Articles, or email newsletters, or displaying in the site, etc.). The member submitting the content does not relinquish their ownership or intellectual property rights of that content.

We feel that moving to similar wording would be an adequate balance of a) allowing UA to make use of the content posted, while b) the member retains what's "theirs" and simply allows UA to use it (otherwise, there'd be no UA!).

Would something along these lines alleviate apprehension on the topic?

And... are there any other concerns that anyone would like to see addressed on the topic, while we're tearing it apart?

Thanks,

--------------------
Jack D. Leach
Founder & CEO
Dymeng Services Inc.
Business Software Solutions
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FrankRuperto
post Jan 18 2020, 11:42 AM
Post#20



Posts: 655
Joined: 21-September 14
From: (MilitaryBrat) Tampa Bay, Florida, USA


Jack,

QUOTE
We feel that moving to similar wording would be an adequate balance of a) allowing UA to make use of the content posted, while b) the member retains what's "theirs" and simply allows UA to use it (otherwise, there'd be no UA!).

Would something along these lines alleviate apprehension on the topic?


That sounds reasonable to me. However, we need to define what exactly "make use" entails, and I feel any mention of Microsoft needs to be totally removed from the equation since UA owns the site, not Microsoft, right?

--------------------
Currently supporting pawnbrokers that use my store management system developed with Access 2010 on Windows7. Experienced with Informix and Oracle DB's.
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