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> Access In A Website, Access 2010 (Office 2010 Pro)    
 
   
AlbertKallal
post Mar 1 2019, 06:25 PM
Post#21


UtterAccess VIP
Posts: 2,868
Joined: 12-April 07
From: Edmonton, Alberta Canada


I think for someone with VBA and Access experience then the free Edition of Visual Studio express is the path of least effort.

You get a VBA like language (vb.net). You get a program editor very much like VBA.

Visual studio installs and sets up a web server for you (so you can local develop).

So with this setup you off to the races with some great built in web site templates.

and simply install SQL express. The free edition of Visual Studio has all the features of the paid edition (they are the same except for very few features - none that really matter).

Likely one of the best free IDE's you can get.

see this post of mine here on UA:

https://www.UtterAccess.com/forum/index.php...2050957&hl=

In above (you have to read into the threads I show both a Access report and then the same in Visual Studio. And I show a Access form and then a web Visual Studio form.

Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP 2003-2017)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada



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stevep
post Mar 2 2019, 08:14 AM
Post#22



Posts: 92
Joined: 9-November 14



That's pretty interesting. I haven't heard of Front Page for years, not that I understand anything about web databases anyway:)

Oops, didn't notice there was a page 2 on the thread. I am referring to the countyrealty post.
This post has been edited by stevep: Mar 2 2019, 08:25 AM
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sumosoftware
post May 14 2019, 06:35 PM
Post#23



Posts: 33
Joined: 3-April 19



You could also look at other low code options like https://www.caspio.com/ or https://www.zoho.com/creator/.
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GroverParkGeorge
post May 14 2019, 07:17 PM
Post#24


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Posts: 36,017
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


"I haven't heard of Front Page for years, ..."

Microsoft deprecated Front Page years ago, so I'm not even sure you'd be able to find and obtain a copy to install.

If you go in the direction of creating a web app, go with Albert's recommendation, IMO. Visual Studio Express is a good deal.

--------------------
My Real Name Is George. Grover Park Consulting is where I do business.
How to Ask a Good Question
Beginning SQL Server
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firlandsfarm
post May 25 2019, 05:54 AM
Post#25



Posts: 381
Joined: 28-April 02
From: Heathfield, England


Hey, this topic has suddenly sprung back into life and it's timely ... I didn't pursue the reason for the OP but I'm now back in the game with an SQL 2008 R2 database that I use with an Access 2016 (Office365) FE that contains some complimentary tables. I still can't do SQL 'properly' and I am constantly frustrated that it either won't/can't/I don't know how to do what I want or it makes it so complicated that I can't be bothered and resort back to the Access FE. So I would prefer to use the Access front end for everything and maybe gradually translate the Access SQL to Transact SQL over time. So I guess Visual Studio Express is the way to go, yes? Is there a good teaching website that can be recommended?

Thanks for the links sumosoftware I've looked at Zoho before and glanced at Caspio but couldn't find much about incorporating them in a website and if they will talk to SQL Server. Myabe I just missing it. frown.gif

And TinyGiant2010 ... I can't believe how cheap your property is! I used to have Frontpage 2003 but rather stupidly got shot of it when Microsoft launched Expression Web, that was a disaster!

Grover, there are many sites you can download Frontpage from (not suggesting you do!). 2003 was the last version and it is not on any offical compatability list for Win10 butmany say they still use it without any problem. I must admit the thought/product never crossed my mind.

--------------------
Never doubt the courage of the French - they discovered that snails are edible!
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GroverParkGeorge
post May 25 2019, 08:18 AM
Post#26


UA Admin
Posts: 36,017
Joined: 20-June 02
From: Newcastle, WA


First, I am not sure whether you are thinking of using Access behind a website because you refer to an Access FE with a SQL Server BE. Are you actually planning to put this SQL Server BE behind a website as well? Access FE would mean a desktop, Windows environment.

One thing that bears repeating here, I think, is that Access is unique among Windows development tools (or nearly unique). It contains tools for creating:

a) The data layer in an application. That would be the tables.

b) The logic layer in an application. That would be VBA and macros.

c) The interface layer in an application. That would be forms and reports.

SQL Server, on the other hand, offers a) and to some extent b). There are no interface elements available in SQL Server. If you want to use SQL Server as the data layer in an application, you need a tool to develop the interface and most of the logic.

The use of an accdb or mdb for the data layer, or BE, in a website is rare, and should be. It's not the optimal choice, though it can be done. Hosting companies may still offer it as an option, but with MySQL and SQL Server usually available as well, there's little incentive to go that way.

What I remember about Frontpage was mostly that it generated a stew of html, rather than simple, straightforward html. But there are so many modern languages available today that one really needs a modern development environment to work in anyway.

Finally, if you look at a hosted website, you'll probably find most offer more recent versions of SQL Server, like 2017 or 2019. SQL Server 2008 R2 is close to its end of life. That doesn't mean solutions built on that version will quit working, but Microsoft will no longer be offering security updates. I suppose some web hosts do still offer it, too. But I can't imagine they'll maintain that offering much longer.

I will refer you a series of videos we made last year regarding alternatives to Access Web Apps, including a couple on ZOHO creator.

--------------------
My Real Name Is George. Grover Park Consulting is where I do business.
How to Ask a Good Question
Beginning SQL Server
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firlandsfarm
post May 25 2019, 12:12 PM
Post#27



Posts: 381
Joined: 28-April 02
From: Heathfield, England


Thanks again George ...

"First, I am not sure whether you are thinking of using Access behind a website because you refer to an Access FE with a SQL Server BE. Are you actually planning to put this SQL Server BE behind a website as well? Access FE would mean a desktop, Windows environment." Well we are actually talking of the same setup as my other thread you are helping on so yes, it will consist of Access and an SQL database. But not the same one, just an identical copy (the license I have allows two installs). I was thinking (hoping) I could use Access with the SQL tables linked within the website using Visual Studio Express.

"There are no interface elements available in SQL Server." Yes, I know, that's why I find SQL an absolute pain by introducing an extra layer of complication! I'm an old dog who cannot be taught new SQL tricks. I've tried and find SQL completely incoherient, I've raised queries here that couldn't be answered ... that's not a pleasure it's purgatory. What I'm asking may not be the most perfect solution but a walking stick is faster for a blind man than a car! And an earlier post by Albert said he thought "for someone with VBA and Access experience then the free Edition of Visual Studio express is the path of least effort"

"If you want to use SQL Server as the data layer in an application, you need a tool to develop the interface and most of the logic." that's my question above ... Access FE with linked Access BE and SQL tables and Visual Studio?

I have never suggested nor considered using Frontpage, I was simply responding to your comment that you were "not even sure you'd be able to find and obtain a copy to install".

"you'll probably find most offer more recent versions of SQL Server, like 2017 or 2019" I'm sure they will but my use of 2008 is tied to the app that installed it and updates the database in it. I have no control whatsoever over it, I only want to read the tables anyway, I don't want to interfer with someone else's setup that works. But I have already established that if I install the app on a (Windows) VPS it installs 2008 as it should and automatically downloads updates an it should.

--------------------
Never doubt the courage of the French - they discovered that snails are edible!
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TinyGiant2010
post Sep 5 2019, 11:24 AM
Post#28



Posts: 214
Joined: 1-June 10



Deep cleansing breath...... okay here goes.
If someone today told you they have an Access 2000 mdb with 25000 records in one table, 1000 in a second table, and 500 in a third table; and they needed to display this on the internet, how would you recommend they do this?
All three tables get updated daily. Database gets uploaded to webhost daily.

User visits website, has to login, and their login username and password are in the 1000 table.

Once logged in, user can specify up to 10 search parameters; all of which are fixed. (Out of these 10, select whatever is relevant. This is not "pick 10 random things you can search by")

Once parameters are keyed in, hit the "search" button and see a roster of results that fit the parameter limits. This search hits the 25000 table, and certain elements in this table lookup returns from the 500 table.

While looking at the roster, user is able to click on one result and see full data for this specific item (aka record).

End of objectives.

What current tools do you recommend that would accomplish this?
I'm thinking I need "something" to hold the data itself; something easily updated by one person. (Today I am using .mdb file)
I also need something to slice the data down to fit the parameters. (Today I am using FrontPage 2000 as an html editor only - I do not "publish to web" but transfer files individually. These pages run VB scripting to retrieve fields out of 25000 table and linked 500 table.)
I also need something to display the results. (Today I also use FP2k for this, with html coding. This page also runs with VB scripting, and includes SQL statement to retrieve appropriate fields).

I guess if I had to mimic all of this, using tool(s) available today - I guess I am asking what tools should I use to do this?

I've read answers over the years that suggest using MySQL (and variants) married with an editor. Problem is, I am very comfy creating/inputting/using info in Access and I would love to continue to do so. If I could "easily export" to another db like MySQL; I've not seen any "easy" way to do this. I know it's a snap to export tables from one Access DB into another DB file; and I do this daily. Last time I looked into this, and it's been awhile, the issue of exporting out of Access into MySQL overwhelmed me.

For my next trick - currently I maintain 25000/1000/500 myself and in the future, if a visitor (or secure visitor) wants to supplement these records themselves (I don't have to touch it, but can monitor closely for quality control as well as specify what data they can put where (thinking combo-box strategies); would these tool recommendations still be the same, or would they change?

I may be in way over my head and I'm gulping some water on this - but I am not quite dead yet. Any insights would be appreciated.
-To be truthful, I start with a 25000 record table of records, but after I pare out what I don't want, it slims down to about 650 records. I actually transfer 650/1000/500 tables in one database to my webhost daily. It's under 6MB.

This post has been edited by TinyGiant2010: Sep 5 2019, 11:32 AM

--------------------
Self taught newbie just trying to remember that fields are in tables and controls are on forms.
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AlbertKallal
post Yesterday, 12:13 AM
Post#29


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Posts: 2,868
Joined: 12-April 07
From: Edmonton, Alberta Canada


Ok, I’ll bite on this!

QUOTE
User visits website, has to login, and their login username and password are in the 1000 table.


This is one area where most go wrong! Logons and user authentication is a HUGE topic. Sure, let’s have some logons! While near every web development tool supports some type of security model, this issue is oh so often overlooked, it close to leaving out the fact that all cars with a gas motor need gasoline!

So, while near every web site has some type of system, it is a REALLY huge issue, and one that needs MUCH thought.

For example, when Access web hit the scene, one HUGE issue was the logon system it used. (It required windows domain users). The problem is public facing web sites don’t all work well with this setup. So, if you have internal SharePoint, then great. But for a public facing web site, SharePoint’s authentication model does not have a good system in which users can sign up, logon, reset password etc. So even simple things like what happens if a user forgets their password? If the site is for 10 people, then they can email you. If it is for 10,000 people, then obviosity users need that option to “self-serve” that process.

Or perhaps you adopt Facebook or google logons. So, the kind of security system you use for a web site is kind of like cars and that those gas motors need gasoline. We just “assume” that this part of the choice we make. However, are you going to setup a refinery, and make that gasoline? Now this becomes a very complex topic.

My only point here is that talking about logons for a web site is a big topic. Who and how will we add new users? Who and how will we disable existing users?

If you choose the wrong kind of authentication provider for your web site, then you going to wind up with a system that may not work at all for your needs. The Access web setup is a perfect example of this (The logon system was not appropriate for public facing web sites – only internal company ones).

Now, you can attempt to roll your own logon system. (From that table of 1000 users). My recommend?

DO NOT DO THIS!!!

Web servers has security systems built in. The internet is a VERY nasty place. So, can you tie your existing table INTO the existing security system? Well, yes, you can in most cases. But that means you are swapping out a TRUCKLOAD of software that designed around an existing security table. And how the security table looks will often be “different” then what you have.

How such sites work is similar to how workgroup security worked for Access. You don’t write a whole bunch of if/then/else code when a web page is loading. What you do is say that all users who are a member of security group “customers” can only view the web page. Now, the page either loads, or does not if the user lacks rights to that page. And if they don’t have rights, then all of the pre-built in systems that DIRECT the users to another page, or tell them they can’t do this does NOT have to written by you!

Now I apologies for already having written too much about security, since like cars, every web site has a security system. But, say you choose a web hosting provider that don’t support the type of security model you need? Well, then you can’t use that web hosting. So, just like SharePoint is rotten at public facing web sites, you need caution in this area.

I sounds oh so simple. User logs in. But really it is a complex issue. Which of these users are allowed to view and user certain web pages? What about web pages before they have logged in?

Ok, so at the end of the day? Yes, you can use that table of 1’000 users. But I would in fact move them into the existing security tables, since THEN the huge amount of features like re-set passwords, logging in, logging out. Session timeouts – all the gazillion features in regards to authenticated users on that web site will NOW run from the existing infrastructure.

The moral of the story here?
Don’t’ take web security and authentication systems for granted. It is a huge subject. Now of course how you refine gasoline is a huge subject, but everyone drives cars with gas, and everyone users web sites with logons!

QUOTE
What current tools do you recommend that would accomplish this?


Well, it really comes down to what skills you have now. If you have Access and VBA skills? Well then hands down would be to use Visual Studio, vb.net + asp.net.

On the other hand, does your web hosting support windows software and asp.net?

So, if you go out and say learn PHP, and MySQL? Well, if you’re current web hosting don’t support that database, and programming language, then that will not work. Remember, web hosting is just a server computer. And any software you choose to write code with MUST be installed and supported on that server.

So, there are Linux servers, Windows servers, IBM WebSphere servers. They all run and have different software. They are NOT compatible with each other.

So, you either:
Look at what tools and systems you current web hosting supports, and then go off and learn those tools. It is of no use for me to suggest to go out and learn product X to develop with to ONLY then find out your web hosting don’t support that programming language or development tools.

Now, perhaps changing web hosting is a possible choice for you. So, now, you would choose a web hosting provider that supports the web programming languages and systems you are familiar with (or want to learn, or have learned).

So choosing web hosting system is really like choosing a laptop. If you choose an Apple mac laptop, then it not going to run Access, is it? Same thing for web systems.

Ok, now that I noted the above?

I would migrate the data to SQL server. Keep the Access front end. I would then setup a server, and run the web hosting from that box. That way, the web site, and your Access program both share the same database at the same time. A solution with searching, user logons etc.? You really want a common database.

If hosting your own internet server is out of the question? I would still consider SQL server for your data. So one setup could be that you purchase lower cost web hosting but still have the SQL server on site. All I am suggesting here that “half baked” solutions in which you attempt to shuffle data between two database systems are REALLY bad, lots of extra work, and they tend to not be extensible over time. Again, avoid solutions in which you have to shuffle data between two database systems if possible.

It really comes down to what tools you want to learn and adopt. They all have considerable learning curves. But, at least with asp.net, you can adopt tools that are “reasonable” familiar with how you work now.

And how complex is the existing application? If it not complex, then why not the whole thing to 100% web move based?

Anyway I have typed on for far too long.

As noted, check out this UA post of mine:
https://www.UtterAccess.com/forum/index.php...2050957&hl=

It’s the same one I referenced earlier on in this thread.

I recommend hosting your own web server on site if you have the IT people for this. If not, then consider going 100% web based if your existing desktop application is not rich in features.

And you could consider still hosting free SQL server on your local network, and have the web site pull from that.

Good luck!

Regards,
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP 2003-2017)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
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